3 Strike rule in UK.

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JCOX4
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3 Strike rule in UK.

Post by JCOX4 » Mon May 11, 2020 7:41 am

So on the main page https://www.prisonofficers.org.uk there is a new article regarding the 3 strike rule in the US, where as offenders that commit 3 offences of violence then they are automatically given a life sentence. Some states go as far as giving life sentences to offenders who commit 3 of the same crimes ie theft, burglary!

What are your views on this, would you like to see this in the UK?

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Dartsrob

Re: 3 Strike rule in UK.

Post by Dartsrob » Mon May 11, 2020 10:13 am

I guess they have the prison spaces and the facilities to hand out harsher sentences to first time offenders. I suppose after a third offence it’s apparent they have no desire for rehabilitation so yes I agree with it.

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gaboo
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Re: 3 Strike rule in UK.

Post by gaboo » Tue May 12, 2020 7:45 am

honestly, i dont see it as being as black and white as committing the same offence 3 times showing no signs of rehabilitation.

For example, maybe they want to use their time inside to try and better themselves (obviously this doesn't apply to all prisoners, but for some it will), but find themselves victims to bullying, and are being forced to fight / do drugs or face the consequences, such as risks to their own health, or their families.

Maybe they are the victims of abuse, or have never had/known a stable life, but they have not received the support or guidance they need to "steer them on the right path". for some violence is a way of life, and its making them see that there are other options, and that violence isnt always the answer.

Obviously for a lot of prisoners they do indeed choose to be how they are, or rather, they don't make any attempts to NOT be how they are - changing their surroundings, getting away from disruptive influences etc. but for others i really do think they may just need some guidance and support.

That is why i think it should be on a case by case basis, and not an automatic thing. but also i also think that it should be for shorter times, such as a few years. Otherwise if you are banging life sentences on people left right and center, then they will have lose all hope. no hope of a life or no hope of getting out. and whilst some may think that this is what they deserve, then why would this be any different from the death penalty? hell it would be cheaper in the long run, prevent any further issues whilst locked up (with no hope means they potentially have nothing to lose - thus potentially they could become a much bigger threat to others including staff whilst inside). Now i am not advocating the death penalty by any means, but where is the rehabilitation where there is no hope?

I know i have rambled on a bit here. been a very slow morning in work, but just my two cents :slre:
If not us, who? If not now, when?

Applied: 07/16
RAD: 07/16
Results: 08/16
Conditional Offer: 10/16
POELT Started: 01/17
Left Service: 03/19

Re-applied: 01/20
ARC(??): 20/02/20
Results: 24/02/20
Conditional offer - 27/03/20

Dartsrob

Re: 3 Strike rule in UK.

Post by Dartsrob » Tue May 12, 2020 8:34 am

Oh the death penalty is far more expensive than a whole life tariff. I don’t think it would be as it was. A piece of rope and carried out a month after sentence is passed. I’m sure it would be much like the financially draining American system.

How many section 18’s would it then take before enough is enough? I’m all for harsher sentences. I believe one 10 year stretch would be more effective than two 5 year stretches.

Rehabilitation though very important is not paramount, that should be reserved for the safety of the general public.

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gaboo
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Re: 3 Strike rule in UK.

Post by gaboo » Tue May 12, 2020 10:12 am

With regard to the death sentence, i would have to please ignorance there as i wouldn't even have the first idea on costs, i was just using it as a comparison for keeping somebody locked up on a life sentence.

I agree with you 100% that the current sentences are ridiculous and should indeed be much harsher (or fairer i guess you could say from the victims perspective). and the whole HDC is ridiculous, i have seen people get it who should no way be released amongst the general public.

i Also agree whole heartedly that the public safety is paramount and should come before all else - after all that's basically what we do, protect the public.

Personally for me i think the punishments should be tougher as you suggested, but also if people then continue to reoffend, on the third strike (or even second depending on severity of the crime / risk to the public), perhaps reinstate and begin to reissue the IPP sentences. although i do appreciate these themselves aren't perfect and can be manipulated by the prisoners at times.
If not us, who? If not now, when?

Applied: 07/16
RAD: 07/16
Results: 08/16
Conditional Offer: 10/16
POELT Started: 01/17
Left Service: 03/19

Re-applied: 01/20
ARC(??): 20/02/20
Results: 24/02/20
Conditional offer - 27/03/20

Dartsrob

Re: 3 Strike rule in UK.

Post by Dartsrob » Tue May 12, 2020 10:21 am

I think we are in agreement on the vast majority of points.

I didn’t/don’t like IPP’s I don’t think the guidelines are stringent enough. Some undeserving people getting them.

I prefer 3 strikes equals life sentence. Remember a life sentence very rarely means a full life tariff but having the luxury of paroling individuals on a life license means if they do err on the wrong side of the law it’s an automatic recall. We know it and they do. A useful tool I believe.

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gaboo
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Re: 3 Strike rule in UK.

Post by gaboo » Tue May 12, 2020 10:27 am

The main problem i found with IPP's is that they were thrown around at one point for seemingly bad reasons, but also like you say, people were getting paroled on them when they really should not of been, so maybe if they somehow tightened the rules on them, though im not sure how they would go about doing that and making it "fair". Plus I remember when they got rid of the IPP sentences, no end of trouble / issues with those already on it getting :slRA2: off that they felt mistreated.

I don't know why but i'm just not sold on the whole life sentence thing for three strikes. but at the same time i can understand exactly where those who are for it would be coming from in regards to public safety.
If not us, who? If not now, when?

Applied: 07/16
RAD: 07/16
Results: 08/16
Conditional Offer: 10/16
POELT Started: 01/17
Left Service: 03/19

Re-applied: 01/20
ARC(??): 20/02/20
Results: 24/02/20
Conditional offer - 27/03/20

Dartsrob

Re: 3 Strike rule in UK.

Post by Dartsrob » Tue May 12, 2020 10:46 am

We want to be glad we are not law makers. Always upsets someone.

Let’s face it. It’s all hypothetical anyway our estates aren’t big enough to tighten on time. More to the point if the do gooders get their way we would probably only need one female prison.

I think our prison service is an unsung hero and that’s why I’ve applied. (Passed my Arc so waiting is very painful when not even at the vetting stage). It always appealed to me more than the police.

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gaboo
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Re: 3 Strike rule in UK.

Post by gaboo » Tue May 12, 2020 11:31 am

this is very true.

It is definitely the unsung hero of the civil service, and i have worked with some of the best, hardest working, most loyal and trusting people i have ever had the pleasure to meet whilst on them landings. Im sure you will be more than happy there, and believe me, it is well worht the wait of the recuitment shenanigans... so much so im going through it for a second time :sloo: :slro:

Although a lot of people use it as a stepping stone to the police and other services, I would be much happier on the landings than as a police officer, at least we know what we are facing for the most part
If not us, who? If not now, when?

Applied: 07/16
RAD: 07/16
Results: 08/16
Conditional Offer: 10/16
POELT Started: 01/17
Left Service: 03/19

Re-applied: 01/20
ARC(??): 20/02/20
Results: 24/02/20
Conditional offer - 27/03/20

Dartsrob

Re: 3 Strike rule in UK.

Post by Dartsrob » Tue May 12, 2020 11:41 am

I’m sure I’m making the right choice and this forum has just reinforced the fact.

I’m thinking of all you guys and gals in the service. All the talk is NHS and carehomes getting all the chat whilst you’re in the same boat. I guess though people mention prisons, public think inmates and sympathy goes without a thought of those who work there.

Hard not being on the front line with your future colleagues in a crisis but I’m sure I will should there be another.

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Re: 3 Strike rule in UK.

Post by WentwestCO » Tue May 26, 2020 10:19 pm

I agree with much of what Gabon says. We have mandatory sentencing here in the states. It is showing to be very expensive. When this began in the late 1980s the Federal Bureau of Prisons had around 42 prisons. Now we have 122 and an incarcerated population of about 169,000! We are still building new prisons. Judges need flexibility and people change over time do change. Some take longer than others. We now realize the need for flexibility and our Congress is looking at changing many of these laws. It is proving difficult, asso many are afraid of being viewed as soft on crime.

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