Prisoner in Coma after smash up

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COflyontheWALL
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Re: Prisoner in Coma after smash up

Post by COflyontheWALL » Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:39 am

gaoler wrote:I've seen taser mentioned in a few posts. If we look at proportionality, and take into account the methods we employ now, which one may be considered more proportionate if challenged in a court?

1) 3 people deployed to a violent individual in a confined space in a "fight" until they are overpowered and controlled with pain...

2) Or a 5 second burst with taser... in.. cuffed.. away...?..

Consider the potential for deescalation.. red dot on the chest.. loud verbal commands as the police use.. suddenly whos in charge psychologically, without force being employed?? Think of the message it would send out...
Its more proportionate, more humane, and less injurous (potentially and actually) to all concerned. Its amazing there aren't more examples like this case.

Forget the Taser- I'll take one of those rubber ball guns that FN make. "Stop or I'll Shoot!" "F%$k You Screw!" BANG/WHAP "OOOWWWWWOOOOOOOO!!!!!"
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Re: Prisoner in Coma after smash up

Post by gaoler » Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:08 pm

If we didn't have the restrictions and took a less cautious view towards using force we could employ much more effective techniques and equipment. 3 staff fighting someone to got control is outdated in my view..... and I've been teaching our version for 12+ years..

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Re: Prisoner in Coma after smash up

Post by Headsortails » Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:09 pm

What an interesting few hours I have had browsing the opinions of all the serving officers on this site, I have no doubt about two things, 1- your views are based on experience and although each of your views may be well founded, they are based solely upon the experience of a PRISON OFFICER.
And 2...I will be swiftly removed from this forum because as in prison, the views and opinions of a prisoner/ex prisoner matters not.
So then, on what will most likely be my one and only contribution to your fantastically informative forum, allow me to say these few things, to YOU, the officers of HMPs across the UK.
I served in the armed forces as an RMP and later as an officer at Colchester military prison after years of service decided to leave the forces, in years to come I was convicted of a serious assault and sentanced for sect 20 (protecting my wife and child from 3 drunken thugs) I was handed down 4 and a half years, so please understand I do have the benefit of both sides of the coin...heads...or tails. Here is what I would like to say.
There but for the grace of god go YOU...yes YOU! Prisoners are still human and the primary intention of locking away a man or woman is public protection and the second is the limitation of ones liberty the second of which is achieved the second his/her cell door locks, agreed, many prisoners have given up their right to be treated as human as dictated by their crime...but any have not, many like me take each officer as an individual and respect is standard and there to lose, this isn't the pratice of the majority of POs, it seems your view is that a prisoner is a prisoner,scum is scum full stop.
I met genuinely decent POs during my time and also some utterly despicable ones, devoid of any human emotion it seemed, the same applies to all walks of life, including prisoners, it is fundamentally wrong that an officer should see and treat a prisoner as simply a prisoner and disregard the person, I appreciate that you may not have the time or desire to do this but to be filled with hate for prisoners is a far more soul consuming task than actually seeing them for what they are...PEOPLE who have made a mistake (or are judged to have)
A lot of the time it was like looking at myself years ago and I wished I could sit down with just one of you and try to make you see both sides of the coin, I can honestly say that after my experience on the wrong side of the bars I am not ashamed of my 'crime' but utterly ashamed of who I used to be as a serving officer and I absolutely wouldn't have changed unless I had been sent to prison and I don't expect any of you to change but this is my tuppence worth.
Your jobs are not easy ones granted but each prisoner is different we are not all scum and not all 'little darlings' as I have previously read, it is a daily battle for a prisoner to establish himself both amongst the other prisoners and the officers and to have an officer on his/her high horse believing they are the right hand of god IS the root cause of many an uprising in jail. It is my view, as ridiculous as it may sound, that each person wishing to have a position of responsibility over prisoners should experience the life of a prisoner for maybe just 2 weeks, so you can see, feel and think like a prisoner, fake though the experience may be it will give you valuable insight into a world completely separate to yours but one which you can control, like a few hundred puppets on strings, this is a huge responsibility that SHOULD be sought by only those who can distinguish between a murdering child rapist and council tax defaulter between a gun happy gangbanger and a shoplifter.
WE ARE NOT ALL SCUM, OUR LIBERTIES ARE ALREADY TAKEN ,WE DO NOT NEED YOUR VERSION OF JUSTICE.

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Re: Prisoner in Coma after smash up

Post by old sweat » Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:24 pm

Headsortails wrote:What an interesting few hours I have had browsing the opinions of all the serving officers on this site, I have no doubt about two things, 1- your views are based on experience and although each of your views may be well founded, they are based solely upon the experience of a PRISON OFFICER.
And 2...I will be swiftly removed from this forum because as in prison, the views and opinions of a prisoner/ex prisoner matters not.
So then, on what will most likely be my one and only contribution to your fantastically informative forum, allow me to say these few things, to YOU, the officers of HMPs across the UK.
I served in the armed forces as an RMP and later as an officer at Colchester military prison after years of service decided to leave the forces, in years to come I was convicted of a serious assault and sentanced for sect 20 (protecting my wife and child from 3 drunken thugs) I was handed down 4 and a half years, so please understand I do have the benefit of both sides of the coin...heads...or tails. Here is what I would like to say.
There but for the grace of god go YOU...yes YOU! Prisoners are still human and the primary intention of locking away a man or woman is public protection and the second is the limitation of ones liberty the second of which is achieved the second his/her cell door locks, agreed, many prisoners have given up their right to be treated as human as dictated by their crime...but any have not, many like me take each officer as an individual and respect is standard and there to lose, this isn't the pratice of the majority of POs, it seems your view is that a prisoner is a prisoner,scum is scum full stop.
I met genuinely decent POs during my time and also some utterly despicable ones, devoid of any human emotion it seemed, the same applies to all walks of life, including prisoners, it is fundamentally wrong that an officer should see and treat a prisoner as simply a prisoner and disregard the person, I appreciate that you may not have the time or desire to do this but to be filled with hate for prisoners is a far more soul consuming task than actually seeing them for what they are...PEOPLE who have made a mistake (or are judged to have)
A lot of the time it was like looking at myself years ago and I wished I could sit down with just one of you and try to make you see both sides of the coin, I can honestly say that after my experience on the wrong side of the bars I am not ashamed of my 'crime' but utterly ashamed of who I used to be as a serving officer and I absolutely wouldn't have changed unless I had been sent to prison and I don't expect any of you to change but this is my tuppence worth.
Your jobs are not easy ones granted but each prisoner is different we are not all scum and not all 'little darlings' as I have previously read, it is a daily battle for a prisoner to establish himself both amongst the other prisoners and the officers and to have an officer on his/her high horse believing they are the right hand of god IS the root cause of many an uprising in jail. It is my view, as ridiculous as it may sound, that each person wishing to have a position of responsibility over prisoners should experience the life of a prisoner for maybe just 2 weeks, so you can see, feel and think like a prisoner, fake though the experience may be it will give you valuable insight into a world completely separate to yours but one which you can control, like a few hundred puppets on strings, this is a huge responsibility that SHOULD be sought by only those who can distinguish between a murdering child rapist and council tax defaulter between a gun happy gangbanger and a shoplifter.
WE ARE NOT ALL SCUM, OUR LIBERTIES ARE ALREADY TAKEN ,WE DO NOT NEED YOUR VERSION OF JUSTICE.
i've read this before!!!! are you trying to make a point? :slnote:

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Re: Prisoner in Coma after smash up

Post by Guest » Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:08 pm

[quote] I can honestly say that after my experience on the wrong side of the bars I am not ashamed of my 'crime' but utterly ashamed of who I used to be as a serving officer and I absolutely wouldn't have changed unless I had been sent to prison and I don't expect any of you to change but this is my tuppence worth.[/quote]


Whilst I can understand the sentiment behind this statement, and I do agree that there are some bad prison officers, I personally believe this is a reflection of the person that you were and not who I am. Clearly you did not treat those under your care as you should have. As a professional prison officer and one that takes pride in his job I treat all my prisoners fairly and equally like we are meant to. I do not take into consideration what crimes they have committed, be that child rapist or council tax defrauder, when deciding my conduct towards them because that would be wrong in itself and if I did I would be failing in my duty.

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Re: Prisoner in Coma after smash up

Post by Ethnic » Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:37 pm

I'm not interested in what you did to get sent down, or why you did it.

If you behave properly you will be treated properly regardless of who or what you are.

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Re: Prisoner in Coma after smash up

Post by COflyontheWALL » Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:58 pm

Guest wrote:
I can honestly say that after my experience on the wrong side of the bars I am not ashamed of my 'crime' but utterly ashamed of who I used to be as a serving officer and I absolutely wouldn't have changed unless I had been sent to prison and I don't expect any of you to change but this is my tuppence worth.

Whilst I can understand the sentiment behind this statement, and I do agree that there are some bad prison officers, I personally believe this is a reflection of the person that you were and not who I am. Clearly you did not treat those under your care as you should have. As a professional prison officer and one that takes pride in his job I treat all my prisoners fairly and equally like we are meant to. I do not take into consideration what crimes they have committed, be that child rapist or council tax defrauder, when deciding my conduct towards them because that would be wrong in itself and if I did I would be failing in my duty.
Absolutely- It could not be stated any more clearly.

If headsortails had served any real time as a Prison Officer, he would not even waste our time with the preceding diatribe, since he would already know the basic underlying truth of the Prison Service- We are in a people business. We work with people, we supervise people, we incarcerate people, we look after people. The prison is the world we live in, in microcosm. You get all kinds in prison, both wearing blue as well as khaki. No matter which side of the door you happen to be on, it is all really a matter of dealing with all kinds of people, for him as well as us. He'll just have to get used to it.
As for the I'm Not Scum statement he seems to need to repeat over and over, that's nice. When I have to send my young Officers and Sergeants to the hospital day in and day out, with everything from broken hands and blown out knees to toxic exposure to cleaning chemicals or infectious human body waste that was thrown in their face by a prisoner, it becomes a bit of a stretch to be all nicey-nice to every prisoner all of the time. He will just have to settle for what he has coming, which includes whatever respect he may have racked up through honorable behavior in addition to what the government mandates that he should receive.
As for the unfortunate tale of how he came to be incarcerated, again, if he had served any real time as a Prison Officer he wouldn't even waste our time or his with all of that. When someone comes to jail, it matters not how they got there- They are in for the duration of the court ordered sentence, and that's that. We do not, and can not concern ourselves with the justice behind every sentence. We are not in the Justice Business. We are in the Confinement Business. There is no room for sympathy or commisseration in the jails. As it was said in The Godfather- "This isn't personal. It's strictly business."
Last edited by COflyontheWALL on Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Prisoner in Coma after smash up

Post by purplepig20 » Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:15 pm

Well said Fly! :slcl: :slcl:
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Re: Prisoner in Coma after smash up

Post by Headsortails » Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:12 am

I served 6 yrs as an RMP and 8 as an MPO in Colchester, of course there are differences between being an officer in HMP and a Military prison officer, be that as it may I do believe that my years as prison officer, military or not do qualify to voice an educated,informed opinion. No, my statement was not aimed at every officer within the walls of HMP and yes whilst prisoners were I my care I DID NOT treat them as they should have been treated and back then the 'rule book' allowed it and it's only within the last few years I have forced to question my morals and was I right?
Absolutely true is my statement that describes how I felt it was looking at myself years ago when observing certain officers behaviour, that doesn't mean all, it's not a blanket statement, I thought I made that clear.
I am said to have repeatedly said 'we are not scum' in my last post, allow me to respond to that and the same time make a reply to the statement that if a prisoner behaves he is treated well.
Here is an example, from personal experience, about a year into my sentanced I began suffering from crippling migraine of which healthcare was informed and an appointment was made, the day of my appt mess were meant to be issued at the hatch but unfortunately mine didn't seem to be there, 'no fuss no bother I can get them tomorrow' we're my exact words, as luck would have it that night came a migraine of legend accompanied by vomiting, I pressed my buzzer, a night officer with who was also a regular on days came to my door, this is what was said and please consider that throughout my sentanced I was extremely respectful,always polite with no warnings no negative entries.
OFFICER: What?? What do you want?
ME: Guv, sorry to disturb you I've got a really bad migraine is there any chance of a couple of painkillers?
OFFICER: You pressed your fin bell for painkillers?? Am I wearing a white fkn coat? Do I look like a doctor? You should have seen healthcare
ME: i did but there was a mix up with my meds, can I not get a couple of paracetamol from you please Guv?
OFFICER: press that buzzer again you'll get a warning, if you don't like it, don't come to prison.

The hatch was slammed shut, I spent the next 3 or so hours vomiting in incredible pain, too terrified to press the buzzer to request any help. As polite as I was as a prisoner as well behaved as I was, it was still drilled into me that I was scum and didn't deserve to be treated as anything other than scum, this is fact and not just my experience but that of many a prisoner so forgive me for overly referring to that fact, what I'm trying to say is that no one is asking to be cuddled or for a gold star all that is asked is for you to show me the same basic standard of respect I have always shown you! That's it, that's all. Rarely did that happen but it would be completely unfair of me to say EVERY officer spat venom, they didn't but I can honestly say the majority did and if you took offence to my statement it's YOU that need to look at yourself and not quote the rule book to me. Just imagine the roles reversed just for a second, can you honestly say the way you have treated prisoner now and in the past is the way you could cope with being treated yourself? If it is then its not you I'm talking to. I don't expect my opinion to matter or change even one officer in his/her ways, I just wanted to say my bit and I'm afraid no one can tell me I'm wrong as these are MY experiences, MY feelings, only now have I begun to accept that actually,I'm not an animal, I am decent I do deserve to be treated with the respect I offer to others, after years of the prison service and a large majority of its officers drilling it into me by word or by action. It's wrong guys and those of you it applies to please just take a second to really question yourselves.

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Re: Prisoner in Coma after smash up

Post by Headsortails » Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:25 am

Oh and fly, no one is asking for sympathy or commiserations, If I don't show you respect don't give it back! But if I do, at the very least afford me the respect I have shown you! The same way I was wronged by 3 animals who attacked my wife and I, I would never treat you with the hate that I have for them, I have never thrown my waste at an officer so why treat me as if I have? Your jobs are FAR from easy I know this and I know you deal with very very dangerous individuals but I stand by my statement that a lot of officer do not distinguish between those that need to be treated very harshly and those that don't and seem to take pleasure in brandishing the power they have. I am almost positive that you will know this is very true, if you don't then you are very good at seeing what you want to see my friend. Again can I say this isn't a blanket statement.

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Re: Prisoner in Coma after smash up

Post by Headsortails » Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:27 am

Guest, the service needs a lot more officers like you

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Re: Prisoner in Coma after smash up

Post by COflyontheWALL » Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:42 am

Headsortails wrote:Oh and fly, no one is asking for sympathy or commiserations, If I don't show you respect don't give it back! But if I do, at the very least afford me the respect I have shown you! The same way I was wronged by 3 animals who attacked my wife and I, I would never treat you with the hate that I have for them, I have never thrown my waste at an officer so why treat me as if I have? Your jobs are FAR from easy I know this and I know you deal with very very dangerous individuals but I stand by my statement that a lot of officer do not distinguish between those that need to be treated very harshly and those that don't and seem to take pleasure in brandishing the power they have. I am almost positive that you will know this is very true, if you don't then you are very good at seeing what you want to see my friend. Again can I say this isn't a blanket statement.
You have failed to take my post as it was intended. I neither condemn you nor do I pat you on the back. Please refer back to my post. We all deal with all kinds of people, on both sides of the wire. I make no excuses for unprofessional conduct by Prison Officers, just as I congratulate no prisoner on acting as any human being should, and I certainly make no apology for the service I render.
Your posts seem to me to indicate a level of frustration and resentment against Prison Officers who have acted toward you in a manner that is not to your liking, a position which is probably valid from your point of view and which I will not dispute- You were there- I was not.
You are asking me to 'Show you the respect you showed me', and I will again point out that You were there- I Was Not. I would submit to you, sir, that it is you who are engaging in generalities. You neither know me nor are you familiar with my career or management style.
It sounds to me as though it is You who is beating the dead horse here trying to force someone to cough up something in the way of an apology for the way you were treated, or make a blanket statement that "Oh yes, there are many, many bad bad Prison Officers and you were wronged! We are so, so sorry!" You are barking up the wrong tree. What you are trolling for is akin to complaining to Mercedes Benz because your BMW has bad seats. Benz doesn't care, because it isn't their fault.
From your posts, it sounds as though, if taken at face value, that you got a raw deal and then had a less than satisfying stretch in jail. That is most unfortunate for you and your family. I only hope that as you move past that difficult time that you recover the best parts of the life you had before it was interrupted by this incident and the consequences thereof.
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Re: Prisoner in Coma after smash up

Post by Headsortails » Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:28 am

Of course the YOU in my post wasnt directed at you personally Fly and I'm not trawling for an apology :slhehe: , all I'm doing is trying to put the widely shared opinion of the prisoner across. I have no idea on how YOU run your prison and why on earth would assume to and furthermore comment on it? I did think it was pretty obvious that the reason that I used the word YOU was purely to make the post demonstratable and most certainly not to indict you as the responsible party.

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Re: Prisoner in Coma after smash up

Post by kristorf » Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:30 am

HeadsorTails,
Can I just say that prior to joining the Prison Service I was in the Army, during this time I came across many 'monkeys',
some were good, some were pure arseholes on a power trip that would put most Prison Officers to shame.
I also had the 'pleasure' of attending Collie for a short period (in the 80's and not as a guest) and what I experianced there I
have never seen replicated in Prisons with regard to prisoner treatment in the 21 years I have served.

There are good and bad on both sides of the bars.

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Re: Prisoner in Coma after smash up

Post by Guest » Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:52 pm

Headsortails,

I agree that there were most probably instances where you were not treated as you should have been. It's sad but in all honesty the Officers who relish in their power and don't treat prisoners with the respect they should are not likely to change just because you put your story on here, or ask them not to treat everyone like scum.

I can see that clearly your time in prison has had a great impact on you. Had your time in prison not have had such a great inpact you wouldn't have taken the time to make such posts. You want all Officers to treat prisoners fairly and so do I. I have known of Officers that deliberately wind up offenders and I do not think that is fair or appropriate any more than you do. But in reality their own shortcomings mean that they won't pay the blindest bit of notice to a word you say. The only people who will listen to you and pay attention are those officers who you probably wouldn't have a problem with. We are all, including myself, a little defensive against criticism so we jump to each other defence. BUT deep down I am sure many of us have known the kind of Officers you aim your comments to so, yes, you do have a valid point. The problem is that the way you put your point accross won't achieve what you want it to so it defeats it's purpose. The Officers you criticise won't change because you say they should. The reality is that change needs to come from within the officer ranks itself. We as officers need to challenge other officers if we see inappropriate behaviour from them. We need to get rid of the close rank attitude and accept that we will always be fighting our negative stereotype as long as we protect, cover or ignore those that continue to portray it. In the same way prisoners don't like a grass or a snitch, officers can sometimes be much the same, it's the psychology of group behaviour. I hear that you are hurt by your experience in the prison system, but I feel you would gain much more benefit by treating what it has done to you and repairing the damage it has caused, rather than trying to fight what caused it. I mean this without trying to offend you, pick your battles, you can repair the damage it has caused you and move on with your life, but you will never win the fight against what caused it by writing on here. If saying what you have helps you, then all credit to you, but I feel that it's impact on others in changing their behaviour will be limited.

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